The Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX is the perfect product for photo enthusiasts but is also ideal as a general-purpose home or small office printer. Using the latest technology incorporating Epson's latest achievements, true Photo-Quality performance comes as standard without the need for additional upgrades, while printing on plain paper has been improved even further.The Stylus Photo 785EPX uses a combination of advanced dot technology and enhanced resolution printing to produce superb print results on plain paper, coupled with high-speed photo printing on specialist media. A newly designed case combined with exceptionally quiet operation makes this printer an ideal desktop companion. Flexible connectivity comes as standard allowing a wide choice of platforms.
The Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX printer combines high-speed printing with brilliant color and an affordable price tag. It uses fast-drying color photo inks in six tanks, for convenient and economical replacement. A maximum 2,880 x 720 dpi printing resolution, superfine 4-picoliter ink droplets, and PRINT Image Matching technology all combine to produce bright, accurate, true-to-life color. The 785EPX's photo prints are frequently indistinguishable from standard photographs, making this an ideal printer for both select professional applications and home hobbyists.
The 785EPX offers the convenience of photo printing with or without a computer. A PCMCIA Type II card slot is included along with a PCMCIA Type I adapter that supports CompactFlash Type I cards, providing direct printing from many popular digital cameras. An optional adapter supports Sony Memory Stick, SmartMedia, Type II CompactFlash, IBM Microdrive, and Secure Digital cards.
The 785 EPX prints on a variety of media, including standard letter size, greeting cards, banners, 4-inch roll paper, and 4-by-6, 5-by-7, and 8-by-10-inch borderless paper. Print speed is a respectable 8 ppm for black-and-white prints, while a draft (but still good-looking) 4-by-6-inch photo takes roughly 54 seconds.
The software bundle includes EPSON Software Film Factory with Print Image Matching support, Arcsoft PhotoImpression 3.0, and QBeo PhotoGenetics 2.0 TE to help you get the most out of your prints. Installation with a PC or Mac is straightforward via the built in USB and PCMCIA ports. Adjusting print settings is easy thanks to the intuitive onboard control panel. The 785 EPX comes standard with a roll-paper holder and a one-year warranty.
1 Epson 785EPX
Great printer if you use it everyday. The ink cartridges dry out very quickly if you don't use it everyday, they need frequent cleaning which dramatically shortens the useful life of a cartridge. After three years of frustration, it is now in the trash! I will be going back to HP. My son-in-law is still using my first one, a 500C which I bought over 10 years ago.
2 terrible printer
This is the second epson printer I have owned. Both printers have the same problem. The extremely annoying problem is printer head clog if you don't use it in 7 days. Then you need to clean it. Each clean cycle will use about 1/10th of ink. I usually can print seven 7x10 photos per set of cartrige. Rest of the ink is used for printer head cleaning. It is also very slow for photo printing. I don't know if all of the inkjet printers have the same problem!
3 Horrible Printer
This is a terrible printer. I've never seen any piece of equipment that takes so long to get going - anytime you do ANYTHING (even just changing the cartridge), it rolls the cartridges back and forth multiple times, rolls the paper bar, etc. etc. until you finally turn it off and try again. It takes a good 5 minutes for the stupid cartridges to center and stop rolling so you can change them. Plus, it goes through a color cartridge before you've even printed what would be a roll of film. To top if off - the quality is poor - the colors are NEVER right. Look elsewhere for a better printer
4 Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX
Absolutely the worst printer I've ever owned.
5 785 work horse
Being a professional photographer, I went entirely digital about 18 months ago. My first investment was a Epson 1280. I loved it but needed a 2nd printer to print different items, most notably, proof prints and preview sheets for my customers. I bought my first 785EX. Being honest, at times I have problems with head clogs, but my 1280 clogs once in a while too. It is the nature of the beast. I now have 3- 785's. The last two I purchased from a office supply outlet on clearance for $45.00 each. Granted they clog once in a while, but if you can live with that shortcoming they are a great printer. The color matching is great, and the prints are fantastic. The key is using good paper. Epson paper is great, but a bit pricey if you go through a lot of paper. I have also had great luck with some red river papers. Draw backs of this model are few but the color ink cartidge is one of them. I get about 20 8 x 10 enlargements from a color cartridge. Have been buying non-Epson ink from a on line ink supplier with good results. Overall, maybe I have just been lucky, but I swear by Epson printers and the 785, for the money will print 8 x 10 prints as good as my Epson 1280.
6 Was good, but broke 3 months after warranty
This was a decent printer, but it completely shut down with no warning at the 15 month point... 3 months after the warranty expired! Out of the blue one day, I printed one page and then when I went to print the next one, the parts sounded like the gears grinding in a car and the whole thing just came to a halt.
All in all, I hadn't had any negative experiences with Epsons, at work and at home, but after this experience, I would advise two things:
1. Be wary of the longevity of Epson printers.
2. Don't stock up on too much ink. I'm stuck with about $100 in ink that I can't use unless I buy another Epson.
7 Horrible printer
I bought this printer in April of 2001 and it is such a let down. I had high hopes of getting photo-like print quality from it after reading technical print comparisons online. However, I now regret buying it and feel totally cheated! Here are a list of problems, right from the start. 1) All PHOTOS printed come out with a purple hue!!! I have yet to print a decent photograph from this printer; 2)It is forever clogged up and needs constant cleaning; 3)The print cartidges seem to run out all too frequently, even though we hardly use it; 4) It has this annoying pop-up window that pops up 10 seconds on the computer monitor after you turn off the printer. Bottomline - this printer was a dissapointing purchase.
8 Consider a Canon instead
I bought this printer in December 2002 and by July 2003 the print head failed and everything it printed had a dark purple hue. Ink is also expensive. I'm buying a Canon i860 to replace it.
9 i am thinking that all consumer grade printers stink
Boy oh boy. Printers. A constant source of annoyance for me. My latest purchase was the 785EPX which worked 'well'. Not perfect, but well. Photos looked decent at 4x6, but actual paper printing isn't very sharp. The issue now is that after the first 30-40 photos printed I can't get a decent print. Color is wonky. Funny lines appear. I get new ink - i run the diagnostic tests - i try different paper.
Well. for 99$, I guess i can just buy a new one.
10 Excellent Photo Printer - Ink Drinker
We have this printer for the last one year and the prints on the Epson printer are as good as studio prints. The only problem is that the Epson catridges are expensive and we exhaust one color catridge for every 10-15 pictures. It may run longer if we print all the pictures at one time. Printer requires head cleaning if not used for a few days and I guess this process takes up a lot of ink.
11 Great resolution, not much else
I bought this printer so we could print baby photos for friends and family. Good color, great resolution, horrible software. I would not recommend it and plan on replacing it.
The most frustrating thing is the print management software, which does a poor job of centering and sizing photos for printing. I usually find that photos which are supposedly centered actually print far over to one side, or photos that are sized to fit onto your selected paper size do not actually fit. Often, I end up having to print 4-5 copies of a photo because, while it appears to be centered and sized to fit, the print comes out 1" over the right and bleeding off the edge of the paper. (This is also quite expensive because the printer uses a lot of ink!)
While the prints look good, they may or may not actually land on the paper, so what's the point?
12 OK color, great resolution, poor overall hardware quality
I have now owned this printer for almost 1 year. I use it solely for digital photo prints. The color is OK (some shades better than others) and the resolution is outstanding (difficult to tell the photo was not professionally developed as long as you use the Epson photo quality paper and customized resolution settings).
HOWEVER! The printer is clunky, noisy, extremely slow, eats ink like there's no tomorrow and has been plagued with clogged ink cartridges. Unless you print something every day, expect to clean the print heads and replace cartridges frequently.
13 Truly a great printer...
I use this printer both with my Mac (Mac OS X) and as a standalone printer for photos when I do event photos. While not the fastest printer, the quality is flawless. Having the Media reader inside the printer made it stand out from the crowd when I purchased it. I haven't regretted it yet.
14 Won't Be Fooled Again
The print quality of this machine can not be beat...it is Superb!...at least for the first few months. However (!!)...it is plagued with the usual, continuous, pain-in-the-butt, constant clogging! Yes, I use the original Epson inks, but they seem to clog more often than the generics. The ink cartridge pricing may be reasonable, but any advantage is more than offset by the amount of ink used during the constant cleaning....you may clean to unclog a jet or two, and it may work...but then different jets become clogged during the cleaning process. And on and on!!! I could live with the loud clunking noise as it feeds paper, and the fact that it always feeds two or three sheets at a time, but the clogging is very frustrating! I just bought this thing (thank goodness I bought a service warranty) and now already I am wondering if there is a good, reliable photo printer to replace it.
15 I love this printer! It's a great photo printer!
We bought this printer to be our 2nd printer - primarly for photos. We have a great old HP which is great for reports, copying and scanning - but it's too old to print photos nicely. I read about the problems with the small lines and went to the store to look at it - and decided to try it anyway. It's great!
I know what causes the tiny "snail marks" - the wrong paper and inks. You HAVE to use the epson paper and ink - otherwise it doesnt dry quickly and the printer will leave snail marks. I tried Kodak paper and it did this - but the epson paper is great, the color last longer than the Kodak paper anyway. I've also had it happen once when it was VERY HOT and HUMID - same issue - the ink didnt dry quickly.
The photos are clear, the colors are correct. The only better quality I've seen is from a professional lab. So if you want a well priced photo printer that prints photos good enough for your family album this is it!
16 You get what you pay for
This printer was a complete disappointment. The photo quality is average at best. The print cartridges continually clog, and the printer cannot unclog them, forcing you to buy new ones regularly (they're not cheap). Color control is average to poor. Paper jams are a recurring problem, and it often feeds several pages at once.
I need to buy a replacement printer, and this one is only a few months old.
The printer was inexpensive, and it shows. Epson hasn't been a leader in this market since dot matrix went out of style.
17 Amazing performance at this price
I'd read a lot of reviews on a lot of printers before I finally decided to order the 785, and now I have to return the favor. This is one amazing printer. I've recently gotten back into photography, and that, coupled with an ongoing interest in digital art made me certain that whatever I bought, it would have to reproduce my work with more fidelity than my old Stylus Color 1520 (A great printer, but once the printhead died, it was time to move on.) Reviews by photographers were what finally swung me over to this model, and I can tell you that they are not exaggerating. The results I've been getting from this printer are as good or better than I've been able to get from online photo places because the output is more customizable. What I see on the screen is what I want on paper, and with the Epson and some patience, I get it.
I've heard people complaining about the noise, but I have to tell you that compared to my old printer, this one is so quiet, I could print all night long and never disturb the family. The old Epson sometimes operated at Wake the Dead levels, particularly during head cleaning.
I've also heard people complain about ink usage. Well, folks, all I can say is this: Printing like this is going to use up a lot of ink. You don't get photo or near-photo quality without being liberal with your inks. You just don't. If you're going to begrudge every drop of ink, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to print photos to begin with. Send your pics to a lab and don't make yourself crazy. I will say, however, the ink reservoirs seem somewhat smaller than I'm used to, but as there are five inks in the space formerly occupied by three, I'm not surprised. I could wish that Epson had thought to make the color cartridge larger overall, but in the end, you use the ink you use.
I don't know how this model will hold up over extended use; I hope it won't always be clogging, but I do plan to clean the heads regularly, and keep it in fairly constant use. My 1520 did stand up to months of disuse, though in the end, I suspect that's what did it in. I hope not to make the same mistakes with this printer.
At this point, I recommend this model highly. We'll see what the future brings.
18 Awesome Photo Printer - but mediocre for text
When combined with glossy photo paper, we get 4x5 and 8x10 prints from our 3 megapixel digital camera that are as good as prints from a photo lab. And we don't use Epson's most expensive paper, just good quality Epson glossy photo paper (it comes in 100 sheet packs). It is extremely difficult for me to find any image flaws with the prints, as long as the pictures are good to begin with. As a photo printer, I am more than 100% satisfied with the results.
I've had best results using Microsoft PictureIt Publisher. I don't know why, but that software prints JPEG's very well.
As a text or "productivity" printer, however, this unit is not too great. It sometimes takes a very long time to start up and begin printing. It can be frustrating if you're dashing out of the house and you want to print Yahoo map directions, for instance. This printer also uses up quite a lot of ink, which is understandable for photo printing, but not necessary for day-to-day printing. If you have an existing printer, you might want to keep it, and use this unit for printing out digital photos.
I gave the unit a 5 because it's billed as a photo printer, and for that purpose, I cannot praise it highly enough.
19 INK GUZZLER
I use this printer at work everyday. This printer is horrible with ink. Correction, EPSON is horrible with ink. Everytime you turn it on it sprays ink. Before you print it sprays ink. I am out of color ink already. I have only used the color cartridge 6 times the most! Believe that?! Now that the color ink has run out, the black ink won't work!
They also have horrible customer support. I bought an Epson 740i a few months before Windows XP came out. I bought XP. Epson never came out with drivers for XP for that printer model.
I will not buy Epson again. I have a Canon i850 at home and I love it! Prints almost as fast as laser not like Epson.
20 Superb Photo Printer
I've owned this printer for one month. I use it with a Sony Vaio Pentium 4 (1.6 GHz), Windows XP Home, 512mb Ram and printing through Adobe Photoshop 6.
The driver installation was easy with no problems and the output from this printer is stunning. The prints are superior to anything I have ever had done at a photolab. I own several printers (2 Lexmarks, 2 Hp's and 2 Epsons including this one) and for printing photos on glossy paper the Epson 785EPX can't be beat for quality. I also have an Epson C80 which prints beautifully on matte paper but the 785EPX is the best choice for glossy prints.
I use the Epson Premium Glossy paper and print at 1440dpi, high speed OFF and PhotoEnhance4 with Vivid selected in the Color Management Options. I've printed a number of 8 X 10's from scanned photographs (not negatives) and the prints actually look better than the original. Also the colors come close to matching without much tweaking in Photoshop.
The reason I gave this printer 4 stars instead of 5 is that it is noisy and (as other reviewers have said) if you look very hard at a certain angle you can sometimes see the "pizza cutter" marks that the tracking wheels leave on the paper. I don't think that most people would notice this but I am pretty picky.
As far as durability goes, I can't say since I've only had the printer for about a month. But the quality of the prints are superb and I am difficult to please.
21 After 8 months, pretty much useless
Worked fine for about the first month or two, but has gradually gotten worse.
I don't even try to print photographs anymore, and right now it's barely printing out text documents. I don't use it that much, maybe once or twice a week, but it's becoming pointless. I have run through all the diagnostic and cleaning functions - replaced the ink... nothing is happening. oh well.
22 Excellent for the Price!!!
I have used all the top name brand printers. For home use this is an excellent printer. The colors are vibrant and if using photo paper the print is better than expected. I recommend this printer and Epson paper products. If you compare the quality of Epson products with other brands, you will see the difference and be more than pleased.
23 Not so great printer
Bought this machine a day ago, am returning it, it is insconsistent in the quality it prints, it eats ink, and pictures are good, no great, but acceptable.
Sounds like it is going to self destruct when it is working. I bought it because I thought I could use it directly wiht my smart media cards, I can, only problem is, the results, again, not so great, the software leaves much to be desired, I,ll stay with HP again.
24 Hates decal paper
Very difficult to work with either clear or white decal paper. MUST print at 2440 dpi on waterslide paper. Even so, ink will often run. Also, printer will smear images already on page. Prints fine on normal paper and photo paper. Epson says it won't guarantee use on non-Epson paper, which is a cop-out. Compares unfavorably to the 777i! Not recommended.
25 The great hardware, weak software company
Although I agree with all the reviewers who are astonished by the amazing picture quality of the 785EPX, like Kenny Hsu below I am disappointed in the software's capabilities. I've got the same reservations about my Epson scanner (1250) -- if this company would ever get software engineers who are as good as their hardware engineers, they'd be unbeatable. In the meantime, I watch screen messages telling me that my photo couldn't be printed -- while the machine is printing the photo!
26 Bad ink jets
The black jets for this printer get clogged way too often. I can print only 30-40 pages before I have to clean the jets. That equates to about twice a week if you use it often! And it goes through ink cartridges (which are WAY too expensive) quickly too. In general, only buy this printer if you're on a restricted budget and don't have to print often.
27 Great Printer!!
This is a wonderful printer and a great value for the money. I take alot of pictures and with the six colors, my pictures are beautiful. I was very hesitant to buy this photo printer because other photo printers were so much more expensive. I took a chance and purchased it and have never regretted it.
28 Some Unknown Problems
This is my first time to buy EPSON printer. (I used to use HP).
Overall quality is acceptable, but I still got some strange and unknown problems. Since I am a software engineer, I did resolve by myself. But I could not image how end-user could handle it well.
1. Drivers are too complicated.
2. EPSON's USB has problem to talk to Windows XP sometimes.
3. Ink monitor is not accurate.
4. EPSON may show Fatal Error on it's screen sometimes.
29 This is the one!
I read all the reviews I could find on as many
photo printers as I could find. Was printing out
my photos using my Smart Media card at [...] on
their Kodak Printer. The pictures I'm getting from
my new Epson Photo 785EPX are as good or better than
those. Some reviewers have rated the 785 badly for
some tracks along their pictures. I have not had this
problem. I am running Windows XP and had no trouble
loading the Epson software. Have printed using the Smart
media card and right from my computer in everything from 4X6,
5X7, and 8X10. This printer does it all and the pictures are
perfect. I love this printer. By the way, the adapter for
all the media cards were in the box - no more sending away.
30 Awesome photots
The Epson 785EPX does a fantastic job. I liked the results on regular photo inkjet paper. I was awestruck with the results when I put a sheet of the Premium Glossy Photo paper thru the printer. The results looked like my film prints. Excellent. The manuals and instructions actually work! I'm very satisfied with my initial trials. The film factory program is quite good.
31 programs and pizza cutters
I love this printer. My probelm is that my friends disk she got seperated the photo fantasy and all the other programs. My combined into 1 called photoimpression 3.0. I want the older disk because the seperate programs are easier to use. All I need is the older disk number, so I can give it to epson. For some reason they just can't do it. Hopefully someone knows and can help. ALSO, pizza cutters, take a screw driver and pop out the white plastic clips that hold them. It's pretty easy. Although its easier to unscrew the top and the bottom, they should weasel out.
32 programs and pizza cutters
I bought this printer and it is great. My problem is that the disk that my friend got with the same printer seperated photo fantasy and photo impression. All I need is the disk number so I can give it to epson, for some reason they can't get me the older disk. Hopefully someone knows and can help. ALSO, for the track marks. Open up the top of the printer, pop out the white clips on the bottom which hold the "pizza cutters". I did that and I don't have those stupid marks, and the paper feeds and prints with no problem. ...
33 Breathtaking photo quality
The photo quality beats even my wildest expectations. No cog wheel marks, contrary to some of the reviews here. But you have to be cautious about a few things while operating, for the very best results (which I categorize as 'breathtaking'): (1) Use Epson Premium Photo paper, even Kodak won't do that great (2) In printer setup, make sure your print media is chosen correctly (don't set it to plain paper when you're using photo paper, and vice versa) (3) Set the print speed to low and not high, for best photos.
I had some problems with the B&W printing, but cleaning the print head once using the software fixed the problem. I can't imagine a better product for [the price]
34 Absolutely the best photo printer ever!
I have read both the positive and negative reviews of this printer prior to making my decision to purchase it. I am extremely glad that I made the decision to "upgrade" from my more expensive HP photosmart P1100 (...) to the Epson Photo 785epx (...). I have printed two 8x10 photos on the included glossy and matte paper and a borderless 8 1/2x 11 on matte paper. I have only used the 1440dpi print mode and with the quality of prints that I recieved at this setting, I see no reason to print at 2880dpi. I cannot find one negative aspect of this printer, even the ink is inexpensive - half the price of my previous printer. I don't think that it is possible to find a better quality printer..., but if you do, please let me know. I never imagined actually saying this about digital, but I think that the output is even better that film and chemical prints. All I can say is where's the sixth star?
Thank you Epson!!!
35 I Can't Believe the Quality!
We've taken over 3,500 pictures of our kids with our 3 Megapixel digital camera. We occasionally printed them on our Lexmark inkjet, but they didn't look like photographic prints, even when using glossy paper.
I heard that this Epson printer was good, but... Wow! We are just stunned at how fantastic the prints look. I'd say they're as good as drugstore prints from 35mm film. The USB interface helps it print much faster than our old Lexmark.
When printing 8 x 10's with highest quality, the printer uses up a lot of ink. Buy at least two extra color cartridges with this printer.
The unit arrived from Amazon promptly, was well-packed, and the installation poster was very easy to follow. Installation and compatibility have been flawless so far. This printer has greatly exceeded my expectations. For its price, I wasn't expecting such incredible quality. I'm not sure how much more quality you can get from a more expensive printer.
36 Great printer, but what an ink hog
I have to agree with the majority of the other reviewers: this is an excellent printer that produces outstanding photos as long as you use Epson photo paper. It is a little noisy, but being long used to noisy printers, that doesn't bother me. However, this thing is an ink hog! I used up the color cartridge that came with the printer in less than a day. Luckily, there are a number of sources on the web in which cartridges are available for considerably less than retail...
37 The Best for the price bar none!!
I purchased the785epx based on reviews from the Amazon web site. I therefor feel obligated to give back an honest appraisal of my findings.
From the moment I set it up, to the first print, I was in awe of the technology out there. My first reaction was, if this is that good what must the more expensive printers be like. Well, curiosity killed the cat. You may find a better printer out there, but not within a few hundred dollars of this baby. The big crticism is it's noise. Think of it as a child who gives you more pleasure at the end of the day but annoyed you ever so briefly! The results are comparable to any prints you may have gotten from a photo lab, only quicker! The price has dropped since I bought it. Jump on it while you have the chance!!!!!
38 The Best for the price bar none!!
I purchased the785epx based on reviews from the Amazon web site. I therefor feel obligated to give back an honest appraisal of my findings.
From the moment I set it up, to the first print, I was in awe of the technology out there. My first reaction was, if this is that good what must the more expensive printers be like. Well, curiosity killed the cat. You may find a better printer out there, but not within a few hundred dollars of this baby. The big crticism is it's noise. Think of it as a child who gives you more pleasure at the end of the day but annoyed you ever so briefly! The results are comparable to any prints you may have gotten from a photo lab, only quicker! The price has dropped since I bought it. Jump on it while you have the chance!!!!!
39 Great Printer for the Price
I have owned this printer for 2 weeks now and have to say I am impressed with the results. I have printed about 10 Full page prints. Yes it does use ink, but the quality when using epson paper is fantastic. The Quality looks just like pictures from an analog camera sent out for developing. It is fairly quiet and takes ~10 seconds to clean the heads when first starting. I have only used the 1440 and 720 dpi modes. I prob will never use the 2880(only for a test maybe)dpi because what I have read form reviews..there is only a difference when looking under >4x Magnification. So far so good.
40 GREAT!
I'm a graphic design student, and I need a very nice printer. I pruchased 785 and I love what this printer can do! This printer can print really really NICE and FAST. Price? 5stars! Result? 5 stars Time to print? 5stars!
41 Pizza Wheel Marks on Paper
To the reviewer who complained about pizza wheel (tiny little indentation) marks from this printer, a quick call to tech support would have answered your question and solved the problem! This printer requires heavy weight papers such as Epson's. In fact, only Epson paper will maximize the ink delivery system, so even if you use a heavier weight (10.4, for example) paper by another brand, photos won't achieve the best possible color quality. Once you realize this, however, the printer is capable of fantastic results--above and beyond others in it's price range, in my opinion.
42 Love this printer! BUT, for maximum performance...
It really should be used with Epson paper exclusively. At first I was a little miffed that I wouldn't have the flexibility of using cheaper papers, but when you see the results that the Epson paper produces, you will gladly pay the premium...FANTASTIC photos. The reason for the difference is that Epson printers use a different method of ink dispersion than other printers, and only their paper is formulated to maximize it. SO, if you don't mind hunting Epson photo paper down, it's well worth the effort! It's a wonderful (and amazingly affordable) printer that outputs photo lab-quality pictures if used correctly.
43 GetaClue
The Epson printer seems to be fine for the money spent, the only problem is getting the proper flash adapter card.You can exchange these cards at no cost except for the s&h < but if you have a need for 2 cards ,because you have a choice of 3 memory cards ...I'm here to testify that Epson is "NOT" willing to help , all you get is "you must follow strict proceedures or you will not recieve the needed items" and then a quick hang-up! Epson "will not" sell a memory card adapter to you...go figure!!! You can only get an exchange and you better follow the rules or guess what ...back to square one. I think if Epson wants to stay in the market they better do a little more thinking about sales and the needs of the consumer.The price is right but the attitude is all wrong !!
44 After 2 Months of quality photo use...
I picked the 785EXP based on other users' positive feeback and (my small budget)pricing while being concerned after years using of only HP ~[cost] inkjet models.
The highest quality output of this Epson is well beyond the best of my HP units. Even the 1400 dpi mode using matte paper makes me happy every time. Vivid contrasting of colors help make the digital darkroom efforts worth every moment. I even love the sounds it makes grabbing the paper and during printing. (Then again I love to hear my modem working too!)
Although Epson recommends single sheet feed of heavier papers, (sometimes I don't) it has never missfead any of the many brands and types tried. (HP Well....hmm..Love cleaning out jammed ex-photo paper, while being scared that it will never work again?)
I was very concerned after reading several negative "users comments" and have found most to be unique to their situations. Things as "too many choices" in the printer driver outputs (I love choices!) "Too hard to install" and "slow to start printing" I had no problems like that. I did have problems with USB device conflicts during printing causing lost communications errors or stopped printing until I unplugged the USB cable on the HP Deskjet that was not powered at that time. I have experienced problems of this sort with many USB devices that have proven to be OS related as well as the mix of software/equipment drivers on a given system.
I wanted to write this to share my opinion and say this is a great printer! Maybe not as fast as some more expensive units but great value and quality. Plus it prints pictures so well that it motivates one to get the camera out and take more and if possible even better pictures!
45 drinks ink
I have had mine now for a month and I love it. All prints are great but it is ink hungry. I think the prints are better then anything I have ever gotten from a photo lab. If ink lasted longer I would give it 5 stars
46 I think it is great!!
First I am not a photography wizard...I was looking for a printer that was easy to set up and printed pictures as my digital camera seen them and the 785exp did just that. This is as easy to set up as any printer or easier (maybe took 30 minutes)...within 10 minutes of set up it was printing pictures from my compacflash card and the prints were fantastic. The instructions were very easy to read and follow.
I had been using an Epson stylus color 900 for my prints but had to keep messing with the color trying to get it right which never seemed to happen.
I went through my files and used different photos just to see what would happen...all printed out in true color....I didn't notice any distorted coloring.
I checked some of the discount ink supply sites before buying this machine and they all carry the ink cartridges for the 785epx at prices 50% or less than retail making this machine very economical to use.
47 Back again
Well, 3 printers later (all different brands)in 5 days, I am going back to square one. I started w/ the 785, which has outstanding photos prints. But, those little 'pizza wheel' marks dotted most of my photos. So, I took the 785 back to [my local store] for the HP 960cse, which was terrible in my opinion when compared to the 785 prints. Also, the HP couldnt' print straight on the paper 90% of the time. SO back to [the store] again, to get a refund, since they where out of the 785. Well, they charged me [extra money]for restocking, even tho the printer was defective. Off to [another store] next, to pick up a Canon s730. I read that they were supposed to be comparable to Epson in photo quality. HAH. Terrible greens (all looked blue green) and, when compared to the Epson, looked like a child colored them in with crayons. Maybe if I spent hours calibrating my monitor to the printer and all that jibberish, but why pay [the money] for a printer and have to reset all my stuff to work w/ it? I'm Frustrated, to say the least. No, Im not an amatuer w/ computers, either. I've tried every setting imaginable on the canon and hp, and nothing comes close to the Epson. Oh well.
So, now I'm on Amazon to get a Epson 785....It prints beatiful photos, but I'll have to live with the 'pizza wheel' tracks for now, until I find out how to remove those darn wheels!!
48 Great Color Prints But Also Some Minor Flaws
I bought this printer to replace my several year-old HP 895CSE. First the positives, photos printed on glossy paper look fantastic. With a high quality original, prints look like they came from the photolab. In addition, the printer can print edge to edge, which most can't. That saves time and cutting. And text printing on plain paper is decent.
A second positive is roll paper.... a big timesaver.
A third nice feature is its ability to print from a camera card directly but I haven't tried that feature yet. Why, because when the ads say this printers supports smartmedia, compact flash, etc. they really lie. Actually the printer includes a PCMCIA adapter for compact flash, and if you don't like that, you have to mail it back (and pay postage) to get the one you want. Having to mail away for the adapter is one thing, but expecting me to mail back the one they gave me at my expense is just too much.
Now the negatives. First, its noisy. Very noisy for an inkjet. Its rather big, considering the print size capacity. And speed is on the slow side. O.K. I can live with those things.
Some even more annoying things. First , the Epson layout. Prints go in the back and pop out the front. Problem is dust gets in easy also. The HP layout of taking paper from a paper tray makes more sense. This may not seem like much, but add some dust and see what your prints look like. In the HP design, paper is safely away in a paper try, and there is no slot in the back for dust to enter.
In addition, this printer has a paper holder door that closes in front to save space. Close it while printing and it jams. (No shutoff stops it printing with the output door closed.)
Perhaps worst of all is software. I use Mac X, and Epson does have a driver, which is great, but, like others with an Epson, I get a communications error if I use a USB hub, or if I'm running "Classic." Both are bad annoyances. In Mac 9.2, no problems.
Another negative about the driver is its complexity. Why is there at least three places to select the type of paper, and several more to select color correction, in addition to many selections for various Epson color correction modes? To a photoprapher, these only cause problems as Photoshop handles all color correction itself. This is a case with TOO MANY OPTIONS. I want to chose resolution, paper, and color. To do this with the Epson driver it takes countless "custom" overrides. I'm not surprised so many people have had color correction problems. The printer CAN print perfectly when you select the 1 in a million correct combination of settings. More here is certainly less.
Overall, a good printer if photo print quality is your #1 concern and your willing to fool with all the settings. Otherwise, it could use some refinements and there are probably better choices.
49 Double-edged sword
The Epson 785 has amazed and angered me all at once. The photo-quality prints are stunning, however, those little 'track marks' that other reviewers have told about are present on my photos as well. The photo paper brand has alot to do with it, tho. HP paper shows the worst marks (9mil), Epson and Kodak paper (8mil) isn't too bad, but under good light, I can still see faint track marks. They are made by the small metal 'cogs' that guide the pic once it leaves the print head. I can't figure out why epson used this type of mechanism, clearly if the ink is still wet, these cogs will leave marks. I'll have to return this printer- I can't display or sell my photos w/ this type of flaw!!
I DO like the software package, however. Once you get used to the nuances of it (2-3 pics) its flexible enough for most anyone.
50 Not a happy customer!
I purchased the Epson 785 to replace a Lexmark Z53. I wanted better quality in my prints. I do not have a digital camera. Instead, I have had professional photos taken, and have scanned them to adjust the photos slightly. While the Epson's actual print quality is excellent, the colors are TERRIBLE! My little Lexmark was an EXACT match to the professional photos. I have spent all weekend, and used a full color cartridge and almost 50 sheets of photo paper, and can't even come close to the color matching that the Lexmark was capable of. This printer is going back. I have adjusted, and re-adjusted every setting and every color combination I can think of, and can't come close to an accurate complexion color. It is NOT my scanner, since the Lexmark printed the photo colors out perfectly...I'm going with HP!
51 If you like whitewashed pictures
We bought this printer because it came with $100 off with the purchase of a digital camera. That was mistake number one. I hooked it up (which was actually very quick and easy) to my computer and sat down to print out some of our Engagement pictures. The first picture made my cream colored sweater appear white and my face was fuzzy and had no depth in color, same with my fiance'. It appears as thought the black only decided to print on shadow portions of the picture. I tinkered as much as I dared with all of the settings, uninstalled, reinstalled, no change. I took it back and got a HP Deskjet 940C. The printed picture looks just as good as the original. Why would I ever stray from HP to begin with? Tried to save myself $100, ended up with a headache
52 Outstanding print quality
I've seen from a number of reviews that some people have trouble installing and operating this printer, and also some print problems. It would seem to be a problem with production quality control. I can't say I've had any trouble with mine, It installed easily on 2 machines and prints over my network without any fuss. The print output on Epson photo paper is just incredible. Wonderful saturated colors, very even and detailed. Even under very close inspection it's amazingly good. If you get a 'good one' like mine, you'll have a smile from ear to ear.
53 Watch Out
Brand new and a real significant problem, echoed by other reviewers. Watch out for vertical lines, white dots, that may appear on 3 out of 4 photos. They will be between 5/8" and an
inch apart and, naturally, the darker the image, the more they
are apparent. Other folks spoke with the local Epson reps and they mentioned "tight rollers". This one unsatisfactoy for photo use. I'll return this
one and try another, wish me luck......PS. 2nd one had problems as well, not quite as severe,
but still unacceptable. Also, the USB software can be real difficult. Bought a HP cp1700 and I'm in heaven, more $ but well worth it. For some odd reason my CPU and all platforms are running 3X faster with the HP, wonder if the Epson software
needs some work as well as their paper feed.
54 Disappointed
... The 785EPX makes very respectable color prints. However, starting with the installation, I've had nothing but problems with the glichy software. I had to reinstall it twice to get it to work. The manual mentions you might, so, obviously, Epson knows they have a problem. I also got some strange error messages which we corrected to some degree by downloading the latest version of the software. However, the spooling is still VERY slow. You can hit print and wait a couple of minutes before it starts. Sometimes it doesn't print at all and you have to reinitiate the print process. The nozzle seems to clog at least once every couple of weeks. I had an HP for 3 years and never had to clean it. It also uses much more ink than the HP and won't allow you to print in black if the color is out. They also say if you use any other type of ink other than theirs you'll void the warranty.Gotcha!... It was noisey. That's an understatement.If all you want to do is print photos and can put up with all the other problems, buy it. However, I need a document printer that I can count on and this is not it. So it's back to HP.
55 Disappointed with photo quality..........
I did a great deal of research on printers before purchasing this one. I saw many good reviews of this model, however I was very disappointed in the results. I found that most of my photos are poor quality. They have little rows / tracks across them. I thought it might be the cartridge so I changed it out. This didn't help. I tried printing all different sizes of photos and got the same results. This is not what I expect from Epson and I am returning the printer to upgrade to the Epson 1280. This printer is fine for regular print jobs, just not photography.
56 Great photo printer with some improvements needed
This printer produces great photo prints if you use good photo paper. However, the installation and product have some warts. I had two big installation problems: 1) the Epson install changed the USB control protocol which blew away my other USB devices (the system wouldn't recognize them, even after uninstalling them and attempting to reinstall them), and 2) accessing the Epson on my IPX-based home network was flakey. Epson Technical Support was clueless and had no advice other than attempting reinstallation (which I had already tried several times in various ways). They were also unaware of an obscure little piece of documentation I found after purchase that said the printer should not be installed on a network using IPX protocol. Also, the print quality as a normal inkjet color printer was not as good as my old cheapsie HP812C inkjet. However, I got the printer for its photo capabilities -- which are great, but I have been unable to realize the flexibility I had hoped for (access from other home PCs, use as regular inkjet).
57 Could have been good!!!
I purchased this printer and have since returned it. I was really looking forward to seeing the great photo quality that Epson is known for. Instead I was very disappointed. To start, the printer left very small marks across all the pictures. In rows about a couple of inches apart. Very evident on darker colors. It apeared to be some product of the feeding mechanism. You might say this was a factory defect but when I returned it I checked the floor model and it did the exact same thing. The Epson rep couldn't explain it away.
I have since purchased a HP PSC 750 all-in-one and I can now say that the photo print quality suffered as well. When I compare the pictures from the old Epson to those on my new HP it's remarkable. The Epson has much more pixelation than the HP. I was shocked. It's rare you can compare the exact photograph off two different printers but it sure tells a story. I'm very happy with the HP.
58 A new Epson convert
I just purchased this printer after having problems with the 2 printers I have at home trying to print out a digital camera photo for my sons's science project. I have a Canon 4300 and an older HP 660Cse, and neither one of them was able to satisfactorily print a small JPG photo of some cups and a lamp.
I went online to do some research and came across the Epson 785 EPX Photo Printer and was impressed by the reviews of others. I was comparing this printer to an HP 990 Cse in the store and the features were close. Epson had the highest resolution with the 2880 x 720 feature (HP's highest was 2400x1200),but the HP printer had more memory (8 MB of RAM) whereas this printer only has a 32KB memory buffer).
The deciding factor was a picture that was on display at the computer store I was in. The store had framed a digital photo that had been printed from the 785 epx and it was incredible! I could not believe that the photo had not been produced via chemical methods. Once I got it home, it took about 15 minutes to unwrap, hook up and begin the install process for the drivers/and optional software programs. I am running a 2000 server and I did not have any problems at all. I also ran my test printing a full color photo using plain paper and HP glossy photo paper and again the results were extremely impressive. I have not tested the digital camera reader yet as I have to send away for the compatible adapter for my particular digital camera (Olympus) which uses a smartmedia card.
All in all, the printer is a bit noisy, the output is very fast considering the printers limitations and I am definitely looking forward to my upcoming photo projects!
59 Great pictures with natural colors
I bought this printer and liked the results espcially when the picutures are taken with Epson 3100Z digital camera. The results which are printered with Print Image Matching technolog are imazing. The only problem I have is with the printer driver on Win2000. Some times it stoped working but if I just reboot the system, the problem is solved. I upgraded the driver but I still have the problem.
The other problem I had was with the card reader. I did not follow the instrucitons for Win2000 and windows install the wrong driver which does not work. I have to uninstall the driver and then install it again by following the instructions given in the user manual and the problem is solved. So be carefull when installing the driver.
60 Highly Recommend Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX
I received the Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX Printer as a Christmas gift. I am thrilled with
the ease of use and the quality of the photos that I have printed. This printer replaces an
HP printer & the difference in all aspects of printing is amazing. My SmartMedia digital
camera card does not work with the CompactFlash adapter that came with the printer, but
Epson encloses a coupon to change this out for the correct adapter. The coupon was
expired, but after calling Epson they extended the deadline date to enable me to swap this
out. The features of this printer & the excellent reviews were several reasons that I had
placed the Epson printer on my Christmas list. One of my favorite features (so far) is
the ability to print out panoramic photos with Epson's panoramic photo paper. I had
taken several panoramic photos with my digital camera & it was difficult to find
someone to print these for me. I had one of them printed at Kinko's and one at a large
photo developing company. The quality was not what I expected & this process was
expensive. I have printed out several since Christmas and the quality beats both of the
others hands down. There is NO comparison. Several reviewers have written that they
do not like the Epson software, but I am enjoying the Film Factory software. I normally
use Adobe for my photo editing, but there are several options that Film Factory offers
that I prefer over Adobe. This is my first Epson purchase, but it will not be my last. I am
going to replace my HP scanner with an Epson scanner in the near future. If you are in
the market for an excellent Photo Printer, then I HIGHLY recommend an Epson.
61 Very noisy for an ink jet
I recently purchased the Epson 785EPX following a positive review in "Outdoor Photography" magazine to replace my HP 952c. I'm a semi-professional photographer starting to do more work in digital, and like to use the ink jet copies as proofs to see how images will print. The quality of the images is very good. I haven't had any problem with color matching, poor printing (vertical or horizontal lines) or jamming. If you really want photo quality you have to use photo paper. I mention this in case someone is just starting and is unsure about the difference. I've also done a fair amount of "regular" printing, and have been very happy. While photos print slowly (the HP was a bit faster, but the Epson's quality is better), letters and pages from the web print very fast, and are quite clear and professional looking on regular ink jet paper.
The ability to make prints directly from the printer - without using the computer - is very cool. You can easily make an index print (thumbnails) of all the images on your card, or a selected folder. I did find these images to be a bit too small to be truly useful, but I'm sure there has to be a way to change the size (I hope!) It comes with a PCMCIA adapter for a Compact Flash card which plugs into the printer. If you use different media, Epson will trade you the CF card for what you need.
One minor problem with printing is that it uses ink at a much faster rate than my HP did. Plan on buying a replacement cartridge soon. Epson gives you the ability to order supplies through the printer software; clicking on the appropriate button takes you to Epson's web site. A replacement cartidge from Epson is about ($$$).
The software that comes with the printer is excellent. There are, as always, some extra programs you may or may not find useful. The printer's software controls are very clear, easy to access and provide many useful printing options, such as easily being able to change the type of paper being used (regular paper, matte photo, glossy photo, etc.)to maximize results.
I really have only one big complaint: This thing is noisy. All the ink jets I've ever used were whisper quiet. This is loud enough to interfere with conversation, and it makes noise for a while when first started, before printing and while printing.
In brief, if you're willing to deal with the noise (I am, so far), this is an excellent machine for the price. Because it has features that I haven't explored yet, I think that it has enough depth to please all but those who demand high end performance.
62 Ink jet storage problem
I'm still looking for an alternative/supplement to my Lex Z42 as it also has the color ink problem when not used frequently. I like the features and quality of this Epson although I keep wondering about the HP 1115 for ease of use, economy, versatility with other papers, etc. As a part-time photographer and print-maker, I don't have the luxury of printing on a daily or weekly basis consistently. How can we prevent the ink from drying and clogging the nozzles? Remove cartridges after use and keep the Lex Z42's of the world for the work-horse stuff like text printing? It is possible to configure the 785EPX printer to use black only for text printing, but what about all those expensive colors? (...)
63 Great printer for its price...
I bought this printer today and love it. I still use my Canon laser printer for plain b&w printing but now use the Epson 785EPX for all my color prints as a seoncdary printer. It connects via standard USB, but the cable is not included. Wish they told me that beforehand on the box somewhere. Doesn't even come with a standard serial printer cable so you must buy a USB cable before thinking of even setting up this puppy. After turning it on and inserting the ink cartidges, it only takes a few moments to install the software. The sofware isn't hard to use at all, but the interface is a bit strange from the standard photo software you usually get. It's actually pretty easy once you know what all the fancy icons mean. However, it is as one poster said, a fairly basic photo manipulation software. Might want to invest into Adobe photoshop or something similar if you want to truly manipulate photos. I bought a Kodak DX3600 digital camera with dock in conjunction with this printer. Pictures are very, very good up to an 8x10 photo. After that, you'll notice a bit of pixellation. Not much, but it's still there if you look. At 8x10 or lower, it's just as good as the photoshop except now you can manipulate your own pictures and adjust brightness or redeye during your pics or after with photo software so you don't have to rely on those dweebs at the photoshop.
64 Easy to use - Great Price - Excellent Photo Prints
The 785EPX was very easy to set up, I followed the simple "poster fold out" instructions. I hooked the 785EPX up as a second printer for printing photos using a USB cable (you will need to purchase one). Took less than 15min to set up. I have not used photo software in the past so the included software seemed just fine. I was able to easily manipulate pictures, create greeting cards, calenders, etc. The price of the 785EPX is very competitive! Okay last but not least - the print quality is excellent! It is very difficult to tell the difference between the 785EPX prints and photo shop prints....these may be even better! A couple of side notes: I did a great deal of research before buying, the 2 most common "cons" were: 1) printer drinks lots of ink, and 2) printer is noisey. Don't let this deter you.....printer cartridges for the 785EPX are very reasonable, and as far as noise....it's an inkjet printer.....it should make some noise!
FYI - I Ordered the printer from Amazon Sunday evening, received it Wednesday morning, great service - thanks Amazon.
65 Great photos, but confusing to use
As the previous reviewers have said, the print quality is gorgeous-as long as you use EPSON PAPER. The reason I am giving it 3 stars is because it has been really hard to use. The included software is both incredibly complicated and fairly limited. I finally gave up and printed from the software that came with my Canon camera. I'm sure with time and a LOT of patience I will master their software, but why make it so complicated to begin with? My HP printer is infinitely easier to set up, use and troubleshoot, but unfortunately the photo quality from the Epson is superior. Enough so that we resisted the temptation to pack it up and return it a number of times when it froze up our computer. If it wasn't for the print quality this would definitely be on the way back to Amazon, in favor of my very user friendly Hewlett Packard.
66 A very good printer
This is my third printer and my first Epson and I bought it based on the reviews on Amazon. My other two printers were HP's and I still have my Deskjet 952C but I do considerable printing and I wanted the Epson for the increased flexibility the second printer brings. The Epson was very easy to set up but remember it only uses USB cable to connect to the PC. The printer is a little bulky compared to some of the newer printers on the market today so be sure and check your available space for the printer. Photo quality is very good and is better than the HP 952C with the colors deeper and prints photos with surprising speed. You can print from the PC or from a compact card from your digital camera. The printer comes with a PCMCIA adapter and Epson offers to exchange the adapter for a SmartMedia adapter or a Memory Stick adapter. Printing envelopes is a snap but you do have to take the paper out but I think it's a minor inconvenience. You can print up to 52 borderless snapshots at a time on roll paper and the printer comes with a roll paper adapter. I've not had an opportunity to try out the roll paper yet but I think the concept of roll paper adds increased flexibility to the printer. Black and white document printing speed is acceptable and is about as fast as the HP 952C. The only downside to the printer is the noise the printer makes while loading paper and printing or, perhaps, I didn't realize how quite the 952 is. At any rate, the noise was not such a problem that it caused me to deduct a star on the rating. I've not had the printer long enough to develop an opinion on ink usage. Inkjet cartridges for color and black ink are reasonably priced on the Epson website and are less expensive than HP products but I'm still unsure of overall ink usage. I've had no problems with the printer since sitting it up and feel it's a very good all round printer and would recommend it for the home/office user.
67 Print heads clogged after 3 weeks of non-use
This is my second Epson printer. My last one, before purchasing the 785 EPX, was the Stylus 850. I had no problems with the print quality of that printer, but the printheads clogged on a regular basis. Just after the warranty expired, the printheads clogged for good, and the printer was rendered useless. I brought it in for repair at the computer store where I purchased it, and was told that the heads could not be unclogged. I decided to try once more myself, before throwing the 850 out, and low and behold, it worked perfectly! I used it for a few months afterwards, with no problems, then I moved, and put the printer into storage for several months. Of course, after not using the printer for a while, I experienced the same printhead clogging that I did in the past. I decided that it was time to buy a new printer. This burned me up. The thought of shelling out more money to replace a printer that went bad from NON USE! After extensive research, I chose the 785 EPX. I was amazed at how much ink it consumed, after only a couple of days of use. After I printed only 8 prints (8x10's) the color cartridge was near empty. Epson puts a computer chip in their new cartridges, which makes them very costly (in my opinion). I did find after market cartridges for the EPX for (dollar amount) (...), but this is still way more than the (dollar amount) I paid for the 850 ink cartridges. One month after getting this printer, I went on vacation for 3 weeks. Now, the printheads in the EPX are clogged. I am livid! I performed 12 cleaning cycles with no luck. I do not like the fact that both the black and the color cartridges are cleaned together...no option to clean them separatly, using more ink than need be :( I called Epson, and the Tech person immediately offered to send me 2 free cartridges to help remedy the clogged printhead problem. I was happy about that, but still angry at the fact that I have to be a slave to this printer (all Epson printers?) for it to function. I don't do a ton of printing, just occasionally. It's my opinion, that this printer is not made for occasional use, however. I guess if you don't mind starting the printer up every few days, to keep the ink flowing, all the power to you. Just hope that there is still ink left in the cartridge when you want to make a print, as just turning the printer on uses ink to prime the heads. What good is exceptional print quality, which this printer supposedly has, (I have not seen it yet) if you can't get the printer to work? Good luck to all the Epson printer owners out there. I will look for another brand.
68 terrific printer, terrific price
this is the printer to get. as best as i can determine, there is no real difference between the quality of the prints from the various epson photo printers. the major difference lies in the bells and whistles. the 785epx cannot print bigger than an 8x10 while the 1200 can. however, this one has the ability to print without your computer, but directly from your memory card. set up was simple and the prints are absolutely fabulous. while i have read some complaints about it drinking ink, it does not seem excessive to me given the quality of the product. ritz camera is in trouble if a lot of people buy this or any other epson printer.
i also have an epson scanner which is equally terrific.
69 Very Pleased
We have been very pleased with this printer. Very sharp photo prints and accurate colors. Flawless. Included photo management software very intuitive and makes printer a snap to use. Excellent value.
70 Great print quality
The print quality is much better than my old 35mm prints direct form Kodak. This is great and real easy to use. The printer will download my pics from my comact flash media automatically to the HDD.
I have ordered the 4" roll of paper and cant wait until I receive that.
71 Darn close to perfect
I've been a happy Epson customer since 1997, and when it came time to look for a photo printer I really only wanted to look at the Epson line. I did research others, though, but I kept finding excuses to favor Epson over any other brand.
And I'm not disappointed. When matched with Epson papers (especially the Premium Glossy Photo Paper), the output is better than all but the most professionally produced studio prints. And I can do it myself.... easily.
The internal card reader is a nice feature if you want to print directly without waiting for the PC to boot up, but it also transfers the photos to the PC without the need to hook up your camera.
All in all, it's worth every penny!
72 satisfied customer
Recently I purchased the Epson 785epx and am very happy with the results I've been having. The quality of the prints are incredible! It's hard to tell the difference between "regular" photos and the ones that I've been printing with this printer. It's also easy to use and very fast. It does'nt get much better than this.
